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Philosophy, Religion, Temporal Anomalies, and the Jackson Street Initiative!
What will become of Ben?
Radzinski's black light madness!
This may help!
Dan's character breakdown!
Christian Shephard:
Need I say more? This guy has done quite a bit of shepherding on the show, getting people to where they need to go (maybe like Abaddon?).
Jack Shephard:
Although there doesn’t seem to be a real-life philosopher counterpart for Jack, his last name says a lot about his character. He is the shepherd figure for the survivors of Flight 815. However, Jack once was called "Moses" in the Season 3 finale "Through The Looking Glass" by the first freighter visitor to The Island, Naomi. She makes this reference as Jack leads his people to the radio tower in an effort to contact the freighter and try to have his people rescued. The name "Moses" also ties Jack to Claire's son Aaron, Jack's nephew. In the Bible, Aaron was Moses' brother.
Furthermore, the first name "Jack" has been used for centuries in English stories as an archetype for "hero" (see Jack and the Beanstalk, Jack the Giant Killer, etc.) It also is commonly used as a short form of John in English, perhaps representing the similarities but differences between John Locke and Jack Shephard, both leaders in different ways. According to Wikipedia articles on name origins, some think that Jack derives from the French "Jacques," which comes from "Jacob." This is disputed, but whether true or not, the belief exists and may connect Jack Shephard directly to the Lost character Jacob and also to James "Sawyer" Ford (see James "Sawyer" Ford for more on the James-Jacob connection. So, in various ways, Jack's name ties him to John Locke, Sawyer, and Jacob.
John Locke:
This is the most obvious philosopher counterpart reference and the one that started my search for the connections between character names and real-life people. The philosopher John Locke is most famous for his beliefs that all people natural rights that include the rights to life, liberty, and property. Thomas Jefferson later exchanged "property" for "pursuit of happiness." Philosopher Locke also argued that government by human rulers is limited and when a government fails it must be overthrown by the people. A government fails when it fails to protect natural rights, and a rebellion is justified. Locke also argued that knowledge is derived entirely from direct sensory experience. This idea is part of the idea of empiricism, an idea also supported by the later British philosopher David Hume (for this, see Desmond David Hume). From this idea of learning, Locke argued that children learn best by doing. Locke argued against the old-fashioned notion that children are "little adults" and instead argued that they are very unlike adults in their emotional states, etc. Therefore, they learn best by doing rather than being told or by reading. The philosopher John Locke also lived during the reign of the English King James II in the late 1600s. Locke's theories helped bring about the liberal revolution that forced the Glorious Revolution in which King James II lost his throne and fled the country.
That's a lot, so how does the character John Locke fit into all that? The idea of natural rights is sort of elusive, but we'll just say that character Locke is a pretty fair guy. Character Locke best reflects his philosopher counterpart through the overthrow of Benjamin Linus. Ben had become tyrannical, and Locke's type of leadership offered a more enlightened way (philosopher Locke's ideas gave birth to the historical period of philosophy and science known as the Enlightenment). The Others (the people) realized that Ben had trampled on their natural rights (whatever they consider those to be) and that he must be cast out in favor of Locke.
The philosopher Locke's views on children resonate well with character Locke's relationship with Walt. While Walt's father, Michael Dawson, expects Walt to do as he's told, Locke cultivates a relationship with Walt where he allows the boy to learn for himself (e.g. Locke teaching Walt to throw knives, etc.).
Philosopher Locke's beliefs on empiricism seem to be opposite character Locke's. Character Locke accepts information from dreams and visions. As a "man of faith," character Locke plays foil to Jack Shephard's "man of science."
Aside from the significance of his name, character Locke seems to reflect Jesus Christ. His mother once told him (falsely?) that he was "immaculately conceived." And now, Locke has sacrificed himself (betrayed by the Judas-like Ben Linus) and returned to The Island resurrected.
The name "John" is thought to derive from the Hebrew name "Yochanan," which means "Yahweh is gracious." The name "Jack" is short for John and may connect the character John Locke to Jack Shephard, perhaps representing the similarities but differences between John Locke and Jack Shephard, both leaders in different ways.
Jeremy Bentham (aka John Locke):
Locke used this alias after he left The Island in search of the Oceanic Six. Actually, Charles Widmore gave it to him and pointed out the irony of the name. Because of this, the British philosopher counterpart Jeremy Bentham may tell us more about Widmore than Locke. The philosopher Jeremy Bentham is one of the first proponents of utilitarianism, the idea that actions are validated as long as they serve the majority of people (Spock's catch phrase "The good of the many outweighs the good of the few. Or the one."). At this point, it is unclear who we can associate most closely with Bentham, the character John Locke or Charles Widmore. However, both participated in the quest to return the Oceanic Six to The Island, and instance of looking out for the good of the majority (all those left on The Island, maybe even the world) at the expense of the minority (the Oceanic Six living in the real world).
Interestingly, Jeremy Bentham disputed the philosopher John Locke's idea of natural rights as it was being used for revolution in France and America during his lifetime (late 1700s and early 1800s). Bentham renounced the American Revolution, even authoring an opposing response to the Declaration of Independence. Bentham at first supported the French Revolution, but opposed it after the Jacobins took power in 1792 and continuing using violence to obtain their goals. The Jacobins of the French Revolution are different than the Jacobites of the English Civil War mentioned under the James "Sawyer" Ford listing, but both derived their name from a (Jacobins from the street where they first met, the Rue St. Jacques; Jacobites from the Latin form for (King) James (II), Jacob). Whether or not these Jacob references are tied to the character Jacob from Lost remains to be seen.
Another similarity between the real Jeremy Bentham and the character John Locke may be that Jeremy Bentham requested in his will that his body be preserved in a cabinet (I'm not kidding). The body is on public display at University College London as an "Auto-Icon," although the head was damaged during preservation and a wax head sits atop the corpse now. The damaged head inhabited the cabinet for a while, but numerous college pranks (like stealing it) forced the university to remove and lock it away. Interestingly, the Lost character also had some strange things done to his corpse after his death. We could sort of say that both had their corpses preserved in rather strange ways.
Also, we can relate Bentham to both Charles Widmore and the character John Locke. Bentham was a child prodigy (apparently, he began learning Latin at the age of 3), and this seems to be a prerequisite for becoming the leader of the Others.
James "Sawyer" Ford:
There's a lot to work with when you have three names. Let's first look at the name "Sawyer." James Ford took this nickname from John Locke's father, Anthony Cooper. Cooper spent his life as a con man and sometimes used the alias "Tom Sawyer" because the ladies seemed to like it. James Ford's mom liked it, and Anthony Cooper conned her into giving up the Ford family savings. James Ford's dad killed his wife and then himself after he discovered this bombshell. When Sawyer became a con man himself as an adult, he took the alias "Sawyer."
Sawyer can be connected directly to Tom Sawyer, a character invented by Mark Twain. Twain's character shared many simple character traits with James "Sawyer" Ford. He was a southerner whose parents died at a young age. Like James Ford in the early seasons, Tom Sawyer was sometimes portrayed as selfish and racist. Also, the word "sawyer" defines a person who saws timber as a profession. In Season 1, Sawyer often chopped the firewood for the Flight 815 survivors.
Second, let's look at the last name "Ford." This can be tied loosely to the concept of Fordism. Near the turn of the twentieth century, Henry Ford established the assembly line system for manufacturing cars. This inaugurated a new society based on mass production and consumption. James Ford reflects this attitude in his hoarding of consumer goods on The Island and his interest in living in The Barracks left by the Dharma Initiative. It's a loose connection but a connection nonetheless. Sawyer definitely reflects a hardcore consumer of produced goods.
Third, recent events have shown James "Sawyer" Ford to reflect the biblical character James. If Locke reflects Jesus Christ, then Sawyer reflects Jesus' brother James. Although James' place as Jesus' brother is disputed, it is often accepted that James was the biological son of Mary and Joseph. Paul wrote that James was one of the apostles who saw Jesus after the resurrection.
If Locke represents Christ (a birth foretold, a sacrifice for others, and a resurrection) then Sawyer represents James. Here's the brother connection. Both Locke and Sawyer had their lives ruined by the father figure Anthony Cooper. For Locke, he is a biological father. For Sawyer, he is the metaphorical father for what Sawyer becomes—a con man (like Cooper) driven by a desire for revenge. This connection becomes clear when Sawyer murders Cooper on The Island at the request of Locke. This ended both of their lifelong pain. Now, Sawyer awaits his "brother's" return to The Island much as the biblical James awaited the resurrection of Christ. The philosopher John Locke also lived during the reign of the English King James II in the late 1600s. Locke's theories helped bring about the liberal revolution that forced the Glorious Revolution in which King James II lost his throne and fled the country.
Interestingly, the name "James" derives from the same Hebrew word for "Jacob" ("Ya'akov"). The word means "holds the heel" because Jacob was born grabbing the heel of his brother Esau (see the "Jacob" listing for more on this). As a matter of fact, the English movement to place James II on the throne in the first place was called "Jacobitism" (Jacob being Latin for James). Hmmm...
Katherine (Kate) Anne Austen:
Kate Austen's philosopher counterpart must be Jane Austen, an important English writer in the early 1800s. Jane Austen's novels usually critiqued a society in which women relied on marriage as a means to success in life. Kate's character follows Austen's critique. She refuses to marry or settle down, and unlike women of Jane Austen's time, Kate takes a prominent role in an action-oriented world previously reserved for men.
However, Kate may have several real world counterparts. In the Season 3 episode "Left Behind," Kate meets Sawyer's former girlfriend, Cassi, in a flashback. Kate is using the alias "Lucy." (Interestingly, Jane Austen had a sister named Cassandra.)Why does Kate use this alias? Because Lucy is a saint (patron saint of the blind), and Kate memorized all the names of saints in Sunday school. It's no surprise then that Kate's first and middle names are shared by saints.
"Katherine" means "pure" (although Kate is far from pure) and is derived from an early Christian martyr, St. Katherine. Interestingly, St. Katherine also had marriage issues, refusing to marry anyone who was not her physical and intellectual superior. She apparently dreamed that she was brought to heaven where she married Jesus Christ, symbolic of her conversion to Christianity. When she converted some Roman women to Christianity (including the emperor's wife) she was condemned to death and was killed on a spiked wheel (a torture device eerily similar to the so-called "frozen donkey wheel" from the end of Season 4).
"Anne" means "favor" or "grace" and comes from the Greek "Hannah." In Christian mythology, she is believed to be the mother of the Virgin Mary. She is the patron saint of housewives and women in labor. This is interesting when compared to the above notions of marriage embodied in Kate's other names. Also, she delivered Aaron. She was there when Claire gave birth in a patron saint sort of way. Also, there are the childbearing issues on The Island. And we all know this Island really needs a patron saint of women in labor. Plus, if Kate truly is pregnant with Jack's child as Hailey theorized, there may be more to this connection with St. Anne.
Desmond David Hume:
Desmond has another clear connection to his philosopher counterpart, David Hume, via the duplicated name. David Hume was a Scottish philosopher, historian, economist, and political theorist. He did it all. His beliefs and/or life are reflected directly in Desmond in many different ways.
First, they are both Scottish. But there are many more important connections. Hume argued against the Principle of the Uniformity of Nature, which states that because we know how events have occurred before that we know how they will progress in the future. This relates to Desmond's fight against the universe course correcting (e.g. saving Charlie) and to the statement that the "rules don't apply" to Desmond and that he is "unique." Yet, Hume also believed simultaneously in determinism (things caused by outside forces not related to human will) and free will, and this definitely relates with Desmond's ability to change the future through free will even though the future "can't be changed" according to Faraday and his mother.
Also, philosopher Hume discussed the nature of causality using a story that involved a man stepping off a street corner and being killed by a passing horse-drawn carriage. He discussed different possible outcomes if the man had left home later or if he done this or that differently. In fact, in the Season 4 episode "The Constant," Faraday told Desmond, "I'd be careful stepping into the street if I were you" in direct reference to David Hume's work. Compare this to Desmond who sees flashes of the future in Season 3 and changes those outcomes by acting differently. In the case of Charlie in Season 3 and finding Ms. Hawking in Season 5, Desmond uses free will in a deterministic universe to change fate.
Although this connection may not relate ultimately to Lost, it is worth noting. In real life, David Hume based much of his science and philosophy on the empiricism that can be said to have originated with the philosopher John Locke. Plus, the real David Hume still lives, indicating that Desmond might be immortal himself (OK, that last sentence was fake).
[that's probably the worst summary ever of the philosophies of David Hume, but he's pretty dense and abstract and I'm only doing this because I'm interested in a TV show...]
Penelope Widmore:
Penelope's first name relates directly to The Odyssey. In this ancient epic Odysseus' wife Penelope waits for her husband for ten years as he tries to return from Troy after the Trojan War. Penelope Widmore also waited years for her true love to return after being lost at sea.
Charles Widmore:
The only possible counterpart I can think of relates to the English Civil War. Here's the short version of that event. In 1648, Charles I (the son of King James I; remember the name "James" is derived from "Jacob") was deposed and beheaded. Then, Oliver Cromwell became England's dictator for twelve years until he was deposed and Charles' son, Charles II, became the English king. When Charles II died, his brother James II became king. This could reflect Widmore's loss of The Island to Ben (Cromwell?). See the Jeremy Bentham listing as well.
"Jacob":
The mysterious cabin-dwelling, technology-hating ghost (?) who apparently runs The Island (at least sometimes). Although this seems to be all we currently know about the character Jacob, there is a wealth of possible connections to the biblical character Jacob. Only time will tell how these connections pan out.
First of all, Jacob's grandfather was Abraham, informed by God that he will father God's chosen people and they will live in Israel. God tested Abraham by asking him to sacrifice his son Isaac on Mt. Moriah (This is the name of the wine from the monastery where Desmond unsuccessfully attempted to become a monk. Desmond commented on the story of Abraham and Isaac.), but God told him the sacrifice wasn't necessary, that it only was a test. Isaac (Isaac of Uluru who tried to heal Rose in Australia?) fathered twin boys by his wife Rebekah, Esau and Jacob. The first popped out all hairy like man, and they called him Esau, which means "fully developed." The second came out holding the heel of his brother, and they called him Jacob, which means "holds the heal" or "he who follows." As they grew, Esau was an outdoorsman and a hunter ("not a farmer"?), but Jacob was simple and "a dweller in tents" (or cabins?). When their farmer Isaac was old and near death, Jacob tricks his brother out of his inheritance and ends up as master over his father's possessions.
Jacob eventually flees the wrath of his brother. During his flight, he witnesses a vision of Jacob's Ladder (angels ascending a ladder into heaven) and meets his future wives Leah and Rachel (Juliet's sister is named Rachel and Jacob apparently cured her of cancer himself, according to master liar Ben Linus). When Jacob later returns to his family land, he hears that Esau will attack him with an army. He leaves his family to wait while he goes ahead. Alone, he encounters an angel (or God in some interpretations) and wrestles with him all night with no winner. The angel finally touches Jacob on the hip, which ends the battle and makes Jacob limp from thereafter. The angel (God?) renames him "Israel," meaning "one who has prevailed with God."
Anyway, Esau actually welcomes him back along with his wives and twelve sons (who will become the namesakes of the 12 Tribes of Israel). The twelfth son actually is born on their way to the elderly Isaac's home. The twelfth son, Benjamin, is born before they arrive, and his mother, Rachel, dies in childbirth (just like Ben Linus' mom during his birth).
[FOR THE REST OF THE STORY, SEE BENJAMIN LINUS LISTING BELOW!
Charles "Charlie" Hieronymus Pace:
We get our first connection to a philosopher counterpart with Charlie when Desmond befriends him in an attempt to save Charlie from imminent death. In the Season 3 episode "Flashes Before Your Eyes," Desmond seems to travel back to the early 1990s but with some knowledge of his life after that. After Charles Widmore tells he shouldn't marry Penny because he's a coward and all that, Desmond walks outside to find Charlie playing the guitar on the street for money. On a sign by his guitar case, we see Charlie's full name: Charlie Hieronymus Pace. This is a connection with the painter Hieronymus Bosch.
Hieronymus Bosch was a Dutch painter known for grizzly depictions of his subject matter. As a painter in the 1400s and 1500s, we can sort of call him the rock star of his day and compare him to Charlie in that respect. But his choice of subject matter applies to Charlie's role in Season 3. Many of Bosch's paintings deal with the crucifixion of Christ or his birth. We can look at this as Charlie's wish to sacrifice himself for baby Aaron and to save the rest of his friends. Bosch also deals a lot with Heaven and Hell (Island/real world?), death (Charlie's many possible deaths prevented by Desmond), wasted life (heroin addiction), and the Garden of Eden (The Island?).
The name Charles derives from a German word ("churl") that described a free person who did not belong to the nobility. In a sense, Charlie was a second-tier Island leader below the "nobility" of Jack, Locke, Sawyer, Kate, Sayid, etc. That interpretation probably reaches but, hey, it works, right?
Hugo "Hurley" Reyes:
I think Hugo relates Hurley to French author Victor Hugo, author of Les Miserables, The Hunchback of Notre Dame, and Toilers of the Sea. In the first two books/plays, Victor Hugo tackled social injustice. In some ways, we can look at Hurley as the arbiter in the early seasons in that he helped get fair treatment for everyone. The third book discusses a group of shipwrecked survivors on a deserted island. I haven't read it, but a synopsis says that it also deals with the effects of the Industrial Revolution (substitute Dharma Initiative?) on the island while the main character attempts to gain the friendship and approval of his fellow castaways. (Seriously, that 's Hurley and that's what the book synopsis says!) Definitely a tie to Victor Hugo. I don't know if this means anything, but in Spanish "reyes" means "kings."
His nickname may be a nod to another similar show, Twin Peaks, in which two characters had the last name "Hurley."
Danielle Rousseau:
Rousseau's philosopher counterpart might really define the entire series in certain ways. Jean-Jacques Rousseau basically argued that civilization is bad but democratic participation in government can dampen its tendencies to corrupt a person. However, he argued that humans attained their greatest potential for goodness and purity in nature. This idea has been called the theory of the "noble savage" (A lot of people argue over whether or not he actually believed this but most have always thought that he does). Rousseau believed that man in nature will not be corrupted because he has no evil influence but this does not mean that he is essentially good. He is selfish and takes care of his own needs. Danielle really represents that noble savage. She worries about only herself, even so far as to steal a baby. She's not really evil but not really good.
Also, I find an interesting connection to the characters Jack Shephard and John Locke with Jean-Jacques Rousseau's first name, French versions of John and Jack. Danielle's first name is the female version of Daniel, meaning "God is my judge" or "judgement of God." In a way, Danielle Rousseau could be seen as Daniel in the lion's den (the Others/Hostiles), alone with only the judgement of God.
Ana Lucia Cortez:
Her last name possibly refers to the Spanish conquistador Hernán Cortés. Cortés arrived in the New World into a land that he perceived to be filled with primitive and hostile people despite the fact that these primitives had not harmed any of his men. Although the Others kidnapped some of the Tailies, they actually didn't hurt anyone, so Ana Lucia's actions sort of reflect the conquistador's actions. Cortés attacked Tenochtitlan just as Ana Lucia killed Goodwin and swore to kill any others. Also, she (like Cortés) killed innocents (Shannon).
Michael Dawson:
Michael Dawson relates to a gold rush town in Alaska's Klondike region in the 1890s. No, just kidding. Not much here. But there are some interesting connections with his first name and the archangel Michael. According to tradition, Michael was the general of the Lord's army. He supposedly cast Satan from Heaven. In the book of Daniel, he is portrayed as Israel's protector, much in the same way that Michael Dawson protected The Island (Israel) from the freighter people (Satan?). I guess he didn't really because he blew most of the "Israelites" up after the mercenaries already got to "Israel," but he tried. That's all I've got with that. Sorry, Michael. You get the short treatment as usual. "You can go now."
Walter "Walt" Lloyd:
He could be linked to either Walt Whitman, Walter Scott, or maybe even Walt Disney if anybody, but God knows how! However, the name Walter comes from two old German words, "wald" and "heri." The first means "rule" and the second means "army, warrior."
Mikhail Bakunin:
This is the patch-eyed Russian who worked at the Flame hatch where the satellite dish was. His philosopher counterpart is easy: Mikhail Bakunin, an anarchist philosopher. I don't know much anarchy he accomplished watching satellite TV but...
Martin Christopher Keamy:
This one's pretty cool and very fitting. A guy named Bob Sassone of the TV Squad blog called him the "Boba Fett of Lost." Nice one, Bob. Nice. First of all, I've heard that his name is an anagram for "karma enmity" (Martin Keamy), meaning that he is opposed or hostile to karma, a prominent part of the Lost world. But this is karma in the technically religious sense. Definition: the sum of a person's actions in this and previous states of existence, viewed as deciding their fate in future existences" (Mac dictionary). I'm a little confused by this but it works well with the dharma angles we've discussed before.
I've also heard (not sure if it's true) that "cimi" or "kimi" means "war" or "war god" in Mayan, but the first name "Martin" sometimes means "warlike" and is derived from the Roman god of war, Mars. Christopher means "Christ bearer" but this hardly fits (or does it?), but I believe they combined Martin and Christopher to make his first two initials M.C. in a nod to the actor who played Tom (aka Mr. Friendly), M.C. Gainey. Maybe not, but I don't see Keamy as a "Christ bearer."
Sun-Hwa Kwon and Jin-Soo Kwon:
I don't about this one. If Sun had Jin's middle name we've have a match: Sun Tzu. But alas... Could be a Raekwon the Chef reference but... I don't know. You decide. Looking at Jin's middle name written out explains why Sun always calls to him "Jin sushi." It's not sushi, it's "Jin-Soo she." At least that's one mystery solved.
Neil "Frogurt" Frogurt:
"Frogurt" means "enjoyable, flaming death" in ancient Mandarin Chinese.
Bernard and Rose:
These semi-expendable characters probably don't merit attaching significance to their names even though they merited a flashback episode. They perhaps have the most shadowy back story, and Bernard may be meant to rule not just The Island but maybe the entire world. Casting aside dentistry for a power grab always makes for great television. I believe the name "Rose" derives from a flower of some sort.
Well put, Matt. First of all, the CGI crew is fired! What a momentous scene ruined by silly special effects! Dammit! Barely show the smoke, with lots of darkness, no clear images, lots of creepy noises, and only show Alex obscured in spooky darkness!! Dammit!
ReplyDeleteI though we were gonna see the Wicked Witch riding her bicycle in the tornado with all that crappy smoke coming out of a smoke vent! Please! It looked like Frank Lapidus' chest hair coming out of that vent! They need to send Christian Bale to handle up on the CGI crew over there.
Besides that, a rockin' episode! I love how Ben blew away Caesar. "There's your apology, John."
I'm starting to think Locke's got some Christian-Shephard-type insights after his resurrection. He knows more, but yet some of the things he said were contradictory. And it seems Ilana is working for someone (maybe Widmore) with her whole "What lies in the shadow of the statue" code. Uhh, "Smells like carrots?"
The scenes with Widmore and Ben were the best, though.
Over all a good, game changer of an episode. But being handed really crappy cgi, the worst smoke monster rendering ever, right at the climax of the episode was disappointing. They did it good with Echo.. those subtle flashes when he faced it down.
ReplyDeleteThe premise behind it, i liked. Even Alex coming out and man handling Ben, that was all good, weve seen smokie take human form before, and this pretty much confirms that fact.
So that was cool, but the way the monster looked and the images being flashed looking like Jedi ghosts didnt fly with me.
That cgi artist should be fired.
The good: Locke steps it up, Caesars bad acting hopefully gets corrected with that shotgun blast, and Illana and crew's secret question.
Are they ALL Widmore plants? i think so.
Once again, how could they let that fly? Fire the whole CGI crew!!! Seriously, Matt, you would know this. How do we contact Darlton through their podcast or something and let 'em know they're really slipping with that scene. I could've MacGuyvered up something better than that. Unfortunately, they McGrubered it. Dammit, Darlton, dammit! Looked like Eric Stoltz in Back to the Future. Or like they let George Lucas or Axl Rose approve that CGI. It's too bad Sawyer didn't run in: "Hey, Frodo. You ain't afraid of that fake smoke are you?"
ReplyDeleteSo Miles is gonna talk to a dead guy next week? Let's just hope he doesn't look like that Greedo dummy in Star Wars' cantina scene.
I just submitted this question to the official podcast, but I'm sure it will be ignored. For those who listen, let me know if it doesn't. Here it is:
ReplyDeleteAre you satisfied with the CGI Smoke Monster in the Temple with Ben? You shouldn't be because no one else is. Less is more. Keep the set darkened for extra scary impact. That was terrible, and you likely "lost" some viewers over that. Please don't let it happen again.
Ultra-Fan 9000
Forgot to mention my favorite part of that episode was Ben shooting Desmond, Ben not killing Penny after seeing Charlie, and Desmond beating the hell out of Ben. Tossing him in the water was hardcore.
ReplyDeleteIlana and that crew are definitely Widmore implants. I think if you know the answer to what lies in the shadow, then you're good, if not, then you're not. Widmore tells Locke he was watching everyone, and he obviously has connections with Oceanic based on his airport encounter with Sun, so he had to know everyone else was gonna be on that flight back. He sent Ilana to capture Sayid and make sure they were on the flight, too. And now they have the crate full of guns to get ready for the war. I'll have to watch that one again. I can't believe ben waltzed into Rousseau's tent and swiped Alex like she was a peanut butter sandwich. That was too easy. Also, they are struggling making Widmore look younger I think--and Ben to some degree, but "young Widmore" might as well have a goatee so he could be evil Widmore. He was kinda dumb looking.
ReplyDeleteYeah, bad casting for middle age Widmore, and not too good with the hair replacements either when hes older.
ReplyDeleteYoung Ethan looked nothing like big Ethan...
piss poor casting and effects on an otherwise superb episode.
I think Sun not goin back in time is cause of her ties with Widmore, she was part of his team of "plants", and they need to be in the future.
I feel like this episode crammed too much in, I kinda miss the slower pace of things.
Was Ben always goin back and forth between Dharmaville and the Others? and he had little Ethan with him, all seemingly before the purge. I want some clarification on that end of things.
Right, if the Purge occurred 12 years ago from 2004, and Alex was 16 in 2004, then Ben stole her before the Purge. So what did he do? Roll up into Dharmaville and say "Hey, I picked this baby off that mango tree when me an Lil' Ethan was campin', pa."
ReplyDeleteAs badass as the story was, that entire episode was slop-tastic from a production standpoint.
I read another blog where someone said the CGI didn't bother them that much because they don't watch Lost for the CGI. That's the whole point We don't watch it for CGI, so don't give us any pisspoor special effects! Someone also theorized that Ilana is a Ben plant, sent to back him up. I don't buy that. She's on the Widmore side.
I like the idea that Sun is a Widmore plant, but I'm not sure yet.
The purge is in 92, Alex is born in 88, he swiped her as an infant, so he had to care for her for 4 years in Hostileland, suggesting he was bouncing back and forth for at least that long. It's likely he's back and forth from the time he is shot until the purge.
ReplyDeleteThe CGI didn't bother me. Joy hated it, but she's hated the smoke monster form the beginning, so I didn't put much stock in her hatred.
Obviously Ben recruits Ethan, but why? My thought was maybe he wanted some young blood with him if there were fertility issues, but I'm not sure about that because what women was he supposed to impregnate? And we don't know if Ben is aware of that problem--this brings me back to the angel thing. Angels can't reproduce, so if these women are throwing down with some angels, they are getting killed because of it. That doesn't make any sense. Forget it. And where the heck does Karl come from? I can't figure that one at all.
The Karl question is really valid. It has to be something cool. After watching again, it seems obvious at the beginning of the episode that Ben knows something about Ilana and she knows something about him. He asks if they need help opening that (weapons?) box real sarcastically. Then Ilana and her friends exchange glances. They're either Widmore plants after Ben, or you were right, Ricky. They're working for Ben.
ReplyDeleteThe worst part about the CGI was the images. It was like Smokey DTV. Without that it wouldn't have bothered me so much. I made a Wizard of Oz joke before, but maybe they intended to invoke Oz because of past Oz references.
My dad proposed another interesting theory. That Ben's dad never physically abused him. We never see Roger strike Ben, just manhandle. My dad's idea is that Ben is putting on a front (like adult Ben). So, Roger might hate Ben, but he doesn't beat him. Ben fakes being beaten, which angers Roger more and makes him hate Ben more. Could be like this but not sure...
Haley told me the other day to rewatch Season 4's "Cabin Fever" when Locke has the dream-vision with Horace building a cabin. After a second rewatching, I found something interesting.
ReplyDeleteHorace tells John he's been dead for 12 years. His nose starts bleeding (like time-jump illness). He chops the same tree down again, and says "Hello, there" a second time. Then, Locke looks up to see the same tree again reappeared. Horace tells him to find him and chops the same tree down a third time.
This is a recurring pattern with the number 3 (324 passengers on Oceanic 815, 108 X 3 = 324; three stewardesses on Desmond's arm in previous Locke vision and three escalators in same vision).
Anyway, maybe this represents three different timelines. Maybe the first timeline is the wrong one because Horace gets the nosebleed after chopping the first tree down.
That's all I've got, but I'd like to hear others' thoughts.
Wait, he also gets a nosebleed just before he chops the third tree down. The first nosebleed is after the first tree and before the second. So either the first or second iteration doesn't indicate death by time jump.
ReplyDeleteJust watched "This Place Is Death" again. When Charlotte tells Jin "Don't bring Sun back. This place is death," it's because she's seeing both the past and the future (like Desmond in Season 3). So she sees Sun's future death on the Island. This would explain why she also knows to look for the well to find the Orchid. She sees a flash of John and crew there.
ReplyDeleteThis also makes me think Desmond is immune from death by time shift. Maybe he's the only one who can handle seeing the future exactly as it will happen. Maybe Locke, Eko, Claire, and Charlie (who all had visions) can see the future in metaphorical dream terms, but can't handle it straightforward like Desmond.
This has no relevance to what has been said so far, but does anyone think that maybe that bad CGI moment was meant for Eko? Perhaps he was the one that was suppose to go to the smoke monster for repentance.
ReplyDeleteSorry, my whole plan has been to disappear for a bit, returning only to pose an inconsequential question in the middle of a discussion.
ReplyDeleteI could definitely see a similar scene was most likely planned for Echo. I bet what ever he would've faced would have been much more interesting than Alex images over and over.
ReplyDeleteTrue. Eko's reckoning would have been much more powerful. Plus, the guy that played Yemi is much creepier than Alex. She didn't really bring it as far as intensity for that scene.
ReplyDeleteIf Bens house in Dharmaville has access to that tunnel were he summons smokie, then whoever lived in that house before Ben may have also been an Other. This has been mentioned before, that someone such as Amy or Horace may also be an Other, or they were trying to defect.
ReplyDeleteBut having a "secret" chamber inside a Dharma home seems like a good reason to suspect whoever did live there was playing both sides.
My guess is Horace, Ben makes sure to close Horace's eyes after the purge, demonstrating respect. Also, the name Horace would fit with the Egyptian them that seems to be appearing.