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Philosophy, Religion, Temporal Anomalies, and the Jackson Street Initiative!
What will become of Ben?
Radzinski's black light madness!
This may help!
Dan's character breakdown!
Christian Shephard:
Need I say more? This guy has done quite a bit of shepherding on the show, getting people to where they need to go (maybe like Abaddon?).
Jack Shephard:
Although there doesn’t seem to be a real-life philosopher counterpart for Jack, his last name says a lot about his character. He is the shepherd figure for the survivors of Flight 815. However, Jack once was called "Moses" in the Season 3 finale "Through The Looking Glass" by the first freighter visitor to The Island, Naomi. She makes this reference as Jack leads his people to the radio tower in an effort to contact the freighter and try to have his people rescued. The name "Moses" also ties Jack to Claire's son Aaron, Jack's nephew. In the Bible, Aaron was Moses' brother.
Furthermore, the first name "Jack" has been used for centuries in English stories as an archetype for "hero" (see Jack and the Beanstalk, Jack the Giant Killer, etc.) It also is commonly used as a short form of John in English, perhaps representing the similarities but differences between John Locke and Jack Shephard, both leaders in different ways. According to Wikipedia articles on name origins, some think that Jack derives from the French "Jacques," which comes from "Jacob." This is disputed, but whether true or not, the belief exists and may connect Jack Shephard directly to the Lost character Jacob and also to James "Sawyer" Ford (see James "Sawyer" Ford for more on the James-Jacob connection. So, in various ways, Jack's name ties him to John Locke, Sawyer, and Jacob.
John Locke:
This is the most obvious philosopher counterpart reference and the one that started my search for the connections between character names and real-life people. The philosopher John Locke is most famous for his beliefs that all people natural rights that include the rights to life, liberty, and property. Thomas Jefferson later exchanged "property" for "pursuit of happiness." Philosopher Locke also argued that government by human rulers is limited and when a government fails it must be overthrown by the people. A government fails when it fails to protect natural rights, and a rebellion is justified. Locke also argued that knowledge is derived entirely from direct sensory experience. This idea is part of the idea of empiricism, an idea also supported by the later British philosopher David Hume (for this, see Desmond David Hume). From this idea of learning, Locke argued that children learn best by doing. Locke argued against the old-fashioned notion that children are "little adults" and instead argued that they are very unlike adults in their emotional states, etc. Therefore, they learn best by doing rather than being told or by reading. The philosopher John Locke also lived during the reign of the English King James II in the late 1600s. Locke's theories helped bring about the liberal revolution that forced the Glorious Revolution in which King James II lost his throne and fled the country.
That's a lot, so how does the character John Locke fit into all that? The idea of natural rights is sort of elusive, but we'll just say that character Locke is a pretty fair guy. Character Locke best reflects his philosopher counterpart through the overthrow of Benjamin Linus. Ben had become tyrannical, and Locke's type of leadership offered a more enlightened way (philosopher Locke's ideas gave birth to the historical period of philosophy and science known as the Enlightenment). The Others (the people) realized that Ben had trampled on their natural rights (whatever they consider those to be) and that he must be cast out in favor of Locke.
The philosopher Locke's views on children resonate well with character Locke's relationship with Walt. While Walt's father, Michael Dawson, expects Walt to do as he's told, Locke cultivates a relationship with Walt where he allows the boy to learn for himself (e.g. Locke teaching Walt to throw knives, etc.).
Philosopher Locke's beliefs on empiricism seem to be opposite character Locke's. Character Locke accepts information from dreams and visions. As a "man of faith," character Locke plays foil to Jack Shephard's "man of science."
Aside from the significance of his name, character Locke seems to reflect Jesus Christ. His mother once told him (falsely?) that he was "immaculately conceived." And now, Locke has sacrificed himself (betrayed by the Judas-like Ben Linus) and returned to The Island resurrected.
The name "John" is thought to derive from the Hebrew name "Yochanan," which means "Yahweh is gracious." The name "Jack" is short for John and may connect the character John Locke to Jack Shephard, perhaps representing the similarities but differences between John Locke and Jack Shephard, both leaders in different ways.
Jeremy Bentham (aka John Locke):
Locke used this alias after he left The Island in search of the Oceanic Six. Actually, Charles Widmore gave it to him and pointed out the irony of the name. Because of this, the British philosopher counterpart Jeremy Bentham may tell us more about Widmore than Locke. The philosopher Jeremy Bentham is one of the first proponents of utilitarianism, the idea that actions are validated as long as they serve the majority of people (Spock's catch phrase "The good of the many outweighs the good of the few. Or the one."). At this point, it is unclear who we can associate most closely with Bentham, the character John Locke or Charles Widmore. However, both participated in the quest to return the Oceanic Six to The Island, and instance of looking out for the good of the majority (all those left on The Island, maybe even the world) at the expense of the minority (the Oceanic Six living in the real world).
Interestingly, Jeremy Bentham disputed the philosopher John Locke's idea of natural rights as it was being used for revolution in France and America during his lifetime (late 1700s and early 1800s). Bentham renounced the American Revolution, even authoring an opposing response to the Declaration of Independence. Bentham at first supported the French Revolution, but opposed it after the Jacobins took power in 1792 and continuing using violence to obtain their goals. The Jacobins of the French Revolution are different than the Jacobites of the English Civil War mentioned under the James "Sawyer" Ford listing, but both derived their name from a (Jacobins from the street where they first met, the Rue St. Jacques; Jacobites from the Latin form for (King) James (II), Jacob). Whether or not these Jacob references are tied to the character Jacob from Lost remains to be seen.
Another similarity between the real Jeremy Bentham and the character John Locke may be that Jeremy Bentham requested in his will that his body be preserved in a cabinet (I'm not kidding). The body is on public display at University College London as an "Auto-Icon," although the head was damaged during preservation and a wax head sits atop the corpse now. The damaged head inhabited the cabinet for a while, but numerous college pranks (like stealing it) forced the university to remove and lock it away. Interestingly, the Lost character also had some strange things done to his corpse after his death. We could sort of say that both had their corpses preserved in rather strange ways.
Also, we can relate Bentham to both Charles Widmore and the character John Locke. Bentham was a child prodigy (apparently, he began learning Latin at the age of 3), and this seems to be a prerequisite for becoming the leader of the Others.
James "Sawyer" Ford:
There's a lot to work with when you have three names. Let's first look at the name "Sawyer." James Ford took this nickname from John Locke's father, Anthony Cooper. Cooper spent his life as a con man and sometimes used the alias "Tom Sawyer" because the ladies seemed to like it. James Ford's mom liked it, and Anthony Cooper conned her into giving up the Ford family savings. James Ford's dad killed his wife and then himself after he discovered this bombshell. When Sawyer became a con man himself as an adult, he took the alias "Sawyer."
Sawyer can be connected directly to Tom Sawyer, a character invented by Mark Twain. Twain's character shared many simple character traits with James "Sawyer" Ford. He was a southerner whose parents died at a young age. Like James Ford in the early seasons, Tom Sawyer was sometimes portrayed as selfish and racist. Also, the word "sawyer" defines a person who saws timber as a profession. In Season 1, Sawyer often chopped the firewood for the Flight 815 survivors.
Second, let's look at the last name "Ford." This can be tied loosely to the concept of Fordism. Near the turn of the twentieth century, Henry Ford established the assembly line system for manufacturing cars. This inaugurated a new society based on mass production and consumption. James Ford reflects this attitude in his hoarding of consumer goods on The Island and his interest in living in The Barracks left by the Dharma Initiative. It's a loose connection but a connection nonetheless. Sawyer definitely reflects a hardcore consumer of produced goods.
Third, recent events have shown James "Sawyer" Ford to reflect the biblical character James. If Locke reflects Jesus Christ, then Sawyer reflects Jesus' brother James. Although James' place as Jesus' brother is disputed, it is often accepted that James was the biological son of Mary and Joseph. Paul wrote that James was one of the apostles who saw Jesus after the resurrection.
If Locke represents Christ (a birth foretold, a sacrifice for others, and a resurrection) then Sawyer represents James. Here's the brother connection. Both Locke and Sawyer had their lives ruined by the father figure Anthony Cooper. For Locke, he is a biological father. For Sawyer, he is the metaphorical father for what Sawyer becomes—a con man (like Cooper) driven by a desire for revenge. This connection becomes clear when Sawyer murders Cooper on The Island at the request of Locke. This ended both of their lifelong pain. Now, Sawyer awaits his "brother's" return to The Island much as the biblical James awaited the resurrection of Christ. The philosopher John Locke also lived during the reign of the English King James II in the late 1600s. Locke's theories helped bring about the liberal revolution that forced the Glorious Revolution in which King James II lost his throne and fled the country.
Interestingly, the name "James" derives from the same Hebrew word for "Jacob" ("Ya'akov"). The word means "holds the heel" because Jacob was born grabbing the heel of his brother Esau (see the "Jacob" listing for more on this). As a matter of fact, the English movement to place James II on the throne in the first place was called "Jacobitism" (Jacob being Latin for James). Hmmm...
Katherine (Kate) Anne Austen:
Kate Austen's philosopher counterpart must be Jane Austen, an important English writer in the early 1800s. Jane Austen's novels usually critiqued a society in which women relied on marriage as a means to success in life. Kate's character follows Austen's critique. She refuses to marry or settle down, and unlike women of Jane Austen's time, Kate takes a prominent role in an action-oriented world previously reserved for men.
However, Kate may have several real world counterparts. In the Season 3 episode "Left Behind," Kate meets Sawyer's former girlfriend, Cassi, in a flashback. Kate is using the alias "Lucy." (Interestingly, Jane Austen had a sister named Cassandra.)Why does Kate use this alias? Because Lucy is a saint (patron saint of the blind), and Kate memorized all the names of saints in Sunday school. It's no surprise then that Kate's first and middle names are shared by saints.
"Katherine" means "pure" (although Kate is far from pure) and is derived from an early Christian martyr, St. Katherine. Interestingly, St. Katherine also had marriage issues, refusing to marry anyone who was not her physical and intellectual superior. She apparently dreamed that she was brought to heaven where she married Jesus Christ, symbolic of her conversion to Christianity. When she converted some Roman women to Christianity (including the emperor's wife) she was condemned to death and was killed on a spiked wheel (a torture device eerily similar to the so-called "frozen donkey wheel" from the end of Season 4).
"Anne" means "favor" or "grace" and comes from the Greek "Hannah." In Christian mythology, she is believed to be the mother of the Virgin Mary. She is the patron saint of housewives and women in labor. This is interesting when compared to the above notions of marriage embodied in Kate's other names. Also, she delivered Aaron. She was there when Claire gave birth in a patron saint sort of way. Also, there are the childbearing issues on The Island. And we all know this Island really needs a patron saint of women in labor. Plus, if Kate truly is pregnant with Jack's child as Hailey theorized, there may be more to this connection with St. Anne.
Desmond David Hume:
Desmond has another clear connection to his philosopher counterpart, David Hume, via the duplicated name. David Hume was a Scottish philosopher, historian, economist, and political theorist. He did it all. His beliefs and/or life are reflected directly in Desmond in many different ways.
First, they are both Scottish. But there are many more important connections. Hume argued against the Principle of the Uniformity of Nature, which states that because we know how events have occurred before that we know how they will progress in the future. This relates to Desmond's fight against the universe course correcting (e.g. saving Charlie) and to the statement that the "rules don't apply" to Desmond and that he is "unique." Yet, Hume also believed simultaneously in determinism (things caused by outside forces not related to human will) and free will, and this definitely relates with Desmond's ability to change the future through free will even though the future "can't be changed" according to Faraday and his mother.
Also, philosopher Hume discussed the nature of causality using a story that involved a man stepping off a street corner and being killed by a passing horse-drawn carriage. He discussed different possible outcomes if the man had left home later or if he done this or that differently. In fact, in the Season 4 episode "The Constant," Faraday told Desmond, "I'd be careful stepping into the street if I were you" in direct reference to David Hume's work. Compare this to Desmond who sees flashes of the future in Season 3 and changes those outcomes by acting differently. In the case of Charlie in Season 3 and finding Ms. Hawking in Season 5, Desmond uses free will in a deterministic universe to change fate.
Although this connection may not relate ultimately to Lost, it is worth noting. In real life, David Hume based much of his science and philosophy on the empiricism that can be said to have originated with the philosopher John Locke. Plus, the real David Hume still lives, indicating that Desmond might be immortal himself (OK, that last sentence was fake).
[that's probably the worst summary ever of the philosophies of David Hume, but he's pretty dense and abstract and I'm only doing this because I'm interested in a TV show...]
Penelope Widmore:
Penelope's first name relates directly to The Odyssey. In this ancient epic Odysseus' wife Penelope waits for her husband for ten years as he tries to return from Troy after the Trojan War. Penelope Widmore also waited years for her true love to return after being lost at sea.
Charles Widmore:
The only possible counterpart I can think of relates to the English Civil War. Here's the short version of that event. In 1648, Charles I (the son of King James I; remember the name "James" is derived from "Jacob") was deposed and beheaded. Then, Oliver Cromwell became England's dictator for twelve years until he was deposed and Charles' son, Charles II, became the English king. When Charles II died, his brother James II became king. This could reflect Widmore's loss of The Island to Ben (Cromwell?). See the Jeremy Bentham listing as well.
"Jacob":
The mysterious cabin-dwelling, technology-hating ghost (?) who apparently runs The Island (at least sometimes). Although this seems to be all we currently know about the character Jacob, there is a wealth of possible connections to the biblical character Jacob. Only time will tell how these connections pan out.
First of all, Jacob's grandfather was Abraham, informed by God that he will father God's chosen people and they will live in Israel. God tested Abraham by asking him to sacrifice his son Isaac on Mt. Moriah (This is the name of the wine from the monastery where Desmond unsuccessfully attempted to become a monk. Desmond commented on the story of Abraham and Isaac.), but God told him the sacrifice wasn't necessary, that it only was a test. Isaac (Isaac of Uluru who tried to heal Rose in Australia?) fathered twin boys by his wife Rebekah, Esau and Jacob. The first popped out all hairy like man, and they called him Esau, which means "fully developed." The second came out holding the heel of his brother, and they called him Jacob, which means "holds the heal" or "he who follows." As they grew, Esau was an outdoorsman and a hunter ("not a farmer"?), but Jacob was simple and "a dweller in tents" (or cabins?). When their farmer Isaac was old and near death, Jacob tricks his brother out of his inheritance and ends up as master over his father's possessions.
Jacob eventually flees the wrath of his brother. During his flight, he witnesses a vision of Jacob's Ladder (angels ascending a ladder into heaven) and meets his future wives Leah and Rachel (Juliet's sister is named Rachel and Jacob apparently cured her of cancer himself, according to master liar Ben Linus). When Jacob later returns to his family land, he hears that Esau will attack him with an army. He leaves his family to wait while he goes ahead. Alone, he encounters an angel (or God in some interpretations) and wrestles with him all night with no winner. The angel finally touches Jacob on the hip, which ends the battle and makes Jacob limp from thereafter. The angel (God?) renames him "Israel," meaning "one who has prevailed with God."
Anyway, Esau actually welcomes him back along with his wives and twelve sons (who will become the namesakes of the 12 Tribes of Israel). The twelfth son actually is born on their way to the elderly Isaac's home. The twelfth son, Benjamin, is born before they arrive, and his mother, Rachel, dies in childbirth (just like Ben Linus' mom during his birth).
[FOR THE REST OF THE STORY, SEE BENJAMIN LINUS LISTING BELOW!
Charles "Charlie" Hieronymus Pace:
We get our first connection to a philosopher counterpart with Charlie when Desmond befriends him in an attempt to save Charlie from imminent death. In the Season 3 episode "Flashes Before Your Eyes," Desmond seems to travel back to the early 1990s but with some knowledge of his life after that. After Charles Widmore tells he shouldn't marry Penny because he's a coward and all that, Desmond walks outside to find Charlie playing the guitar on the street for money. On a sign by his guitar case, we see Charlie's full name: Charlie Hieronymus Pace. This is a connection with the painter Hieronymus Bosch.
Hieronymus Bosch was a Dutch painter known for grizzly depictions of his subject matter. As a painter in the 1400s and 1500s, we can sort of call him the rock star of his day and compare him to Charlie in that respect. But his choice of subject matter applies to Charlie's role in Season 3. Many of Bosch's paintings deal with the crucifixion of Christ or his birth. We can look at this as Charlie's wish to sacrifice himself for baby Aaron and to save the rest of his friends. Bosch also deals a lot with Heaven and Hell (Island/real world?), death (Charlie's many possible deaths prevented by Desmond), wasted life (heroin addiction), and the Garden of Eden (The Island?).
The name Charles derives from a German word ("churl") that described a free person who did not belong to the nobility. In a sense, Charlie was a second-tier Island leader below the "nobility" of Jack, Locke, Sawyer, Kate, Sayid, etc. That interpretation probably reaches but, hey, it works, right?
Hugo "Hurley" Reyes:
I think Hugo relates Hurley to French author Victor Hugo, author of Les Miserables, The Hunchback of Notre Dame, and Toilers of the Sea. In the first two books/plays, Victor Hugo tackled social injustice. In some ways, we can look at Hurley as the arbiter in the early seasons in that he helped get fair treatment for everyone. The third book discusses a group of shipwrecked survivors on a deserted island. I haven't read it, but a synopsis says that it also deals with the effects of the Industrial Revolution (substitute Dharma Initiative?) on the island while the main character attempts to gain the friendship and approval of his fellow castaways. (Seriously, that 's Hurley and that's what the book synopsis says!) Definitely a tie to Victor Hugo. I don't know if this means anything, but in Spanish "reyes" means "kings."
His nickname may be a nod to another similar show, Twin Peaks, in which two characters had the last name "Hurley."
Danielle Rousseau:
Rousseau's philosopher counterpart might really define the entire series in certain ways. Jean-Jacques Rousseau basically argued that civilization is bad but democratic participation in government can dampen its tendencies to corrupt a person. However, he argued that humans attained their greatest potential for goodness and purity in nature. This idea has been called the theory of the "noble savage" (A lot of people argue over whether or not he actually believed this but most have always thought that he does). Rousseau believed that man in nature will not be corrupted because he has no evil influence but this does not mean that he is essentially good. He is selfish and takes care of his own needs. Danielle really represents that noble savage. She worries about only herself, even so far as to steal a baby. She's not really evil but not really good.
Also, I find an interesting connection to the characters Jack Shephard and John Locke with Jean-Jacques Rousseau's first name, French versions of John and Jack. Danielle's first name is the female version of Daniel, meaning "God is my judge" or "judgement of God." In a way, Danielle Rousseau could be seen as Daniel in the lion's den (the Others/Hostiles), alone with only the judgement of God.
Ana Lucia Cortez:
Her last name possibly refers to the Spanish conquistador Hernán Cortés. Cortés arrived in the New World into a land that he perceived to be filled with primitive and hostile people despite the fact that these primitives had not harmed any of his men. Although the Others kidnapped some of the Tailies, they actually didn't hurt anyone, so Ana Lucia's actions sort of reflect the conquistador's actions. Cortés attacked Tenochtitlan just as Ana Lucia killed Goodwin and swore to kill any others. Also, she (like Cortés) killed innocents (Shannon).
Michael Dawson:
Michael Dawson relates to a gold rush town in Alaska's Klondike region in the 1890s. No, just kidding. Not much here. But there are some interesting connections with his first name and the archangel Michael. According to tradition, Michael was the general of the Lord's army. He supposedly cast Satan from Heaven. In the book of Daniel, he is portrayed as Israel's protector, much in the same way that Michael Dawson protected The Island (Israel) from the freighter people (Satan?). I guess he didn't really because he blew most of the "Israelites" up after the mercenaries already got to "Israel," but he tried. That's all I've got with that. Sorry, Michael. You get the short treatment as usual. "You can go now."
Walter "Walt" Lloyd:
He could be linked to either Walt Whitman, Walter Scott, or maybe even Walt Disney if anybody, but God knows how! However, the name Walter comes from two old German words, "wald" and "heri." The first means "rule" and the second means "army, warrior."
Mikhail Bakunin:
This is the patch-eyed Russian who worked at the Flame hatch where the satellite dish was. His philosopher counterpart is easy: Mikhail Bakunin, an anarchist philosopher. I don't know much anarchy he accomplished watching satellite TV but...
Martin Christopher Keamy:
This one's pretty cool and very fitting. A guy named Bob Sassone of the TV Squad blog called him the "Boba Fett of Lost." Nice one, Bob. Nice. First of all, I've heard that his name is an anagram for "karma enmity" (Martin Keamy), meaning that he is opposed or hostile to karma, a prominent part of the Lost world. But this is karma in the technically religious sense. Definition: the sum of a person's actions in this and previous states of existence, viewed as deciding their fate in future existences" (Mac dictionary). I'm a little confused by this but it works well with the dharma angles we've discussed before.
I've also heard (not sure if it's true) that "cimi" or "kimi" means "war" or "war god" in Mayan, but the first name "Martin" sometimes means "warlike" and is derived from the Roman god of war, Mars. Christopher means "Christ bearer" but this hardly fits (or does it?), but I believe they combined Martin and Christopher to make his first two initials M.C. in a nod to the actor who played Tom (aka Mr. Friendly), M.C. Gainey. Maybe not, but I don't see Keamy as a "Christ bearer."
Sun-Hwa Kwon and Jin-Soo Kwon:
I don't about this one. If Sun had Jin's middle name we've have a match: Sun Tzu. But alas... Could be a Raekwon the Chef reference but... I don't know. You decide. Looking at Jin's middle name written out explains why Sun always calls to him "Jin sushi." It's not sushi, it's "Jin-Soo she." At least that's one mystery solved.
Neil "Frogurt" Frogurt:
"Frogurt" means "enjoyable, flaming death" in ancient Mandarin Chinese.
Bernard and Rose:
These semi-expendable characters probably don't merit attaching significance to their names even though they merited a flashback episode. They perhaps have the most shadowy back story, and Bernard may be meant to rule not just The Island but maybe the entire world. Casting aside dentistry for a power grab always makes for great television. I believe the name "Rose" derives from a flower of some sort.
Although I'm supposed to be finishing a paper and we have plenty of time to discuss these things, I just couldn't resist.
ReplyDeleteWhy do Jacob and Jacob's Evil Other need to eat if they're so powerful? Jacob is eating fish, and he asks Evil Other if he's hungry? Evil Other says he just ate. And if Evil Other (Smokie?) is Evil Locke, then he also needs to eat. Evil Locke ate a mango at one point. This also blows my theory that Smokie inhabits bodies. Locke's body is there while Evil Locke is present.
Well, maybe there really are three spiritual forces as I've suspected for a while... I don't know. This is all really confusing. I don't who is who or who they work for..
ReplyDeleteOh, was bandage Ilana speaking Hebrew in that hospital. This would go with Ram who looks very Jewish and the fact that they were carrying Locke's body like the Ark of the Covenant.
And I don't think those people were really Rose and Bernard. Why were they in Jacob's cabin? Or whoever's cabin. Bernard seemed really creepy and I think there's really something going on with them. They commented about everyone fighting each other just like Evil Other did with Jacob in the opening scene. Hmm....
Oh yeah, that dude Ram? His name is Bramm. Second time I did that..
ReplyDeleteWhat lies in the shadow of the statue? Here's the answer translated from Latin: "He who will protect/save us all."
ReplyDeleteI was telling Dan that in the latest podcast, Darlton said season 6 will be very reflective of season 1, which I think is what everyone was hoping for. It will be more character based, and back to the survival element of the show.
ReplyDeleteNow with all the Jacob visits, Im thinking we are shifting back to the tradtitional flashback/on island story line. Maybe we'll see more off island Jacob encounters from the past.
Im confused as to why Jacob would go to Locke after his fall out of that building, and seemingly save him if Locke eventually winds up being responsible for killing Jacob.
Maybe Jacob and the other dude both figured out the loophole, and Jacob needed Locke to stay alive and abide by the ways of Jacob, and the other dude needed Locke to die so he could use his image/soul in order to take over the Island.
So I guess we have our two sides: Light and Dark, but who is on whos side, and just who is that other dude from the beginning?
Isnt there a bilical story of Jacob and Esau?
Anyone know that story? Im gonna look that up.
God loves you as he loves Jacob.
ReplyDeletefound this about Jacob and Esau:
Rebecca was extremely uncomfortable during her double pregnancy and went to inquire of God why she was suffering so. The Midrash says that whenever she would pass a house of Torah study, Jacob would struggle to come out; whenever she would pass a house of idolatry, Esau would agitate to come out.[3] She received the prophecy that twins were fighting in her womb and would continue to fight all their lives, and after they became two separate nations. The prophecy also said that the older would serve the younger; its statement "one people will be stronger than the other" has been taken to mean that the two nations would never gain power simultaneously: when one fell, the other would rise, and vice versa.
Bad Twin... the guy dressed in black in the beginning has to be Esau, Jacob was dressed in white. Esau has to follow Jacob until he can find a way to gain leadership.
So im gonna refer to the guy in black as Esau from now on.
Esau and Jacob are looking out at that boat(Black Rock?) Esau says, "you brought them here, youre trying to prove me wrong"
so Jacob is always trying to recruit people for whatever reason, and seemingly Esau doesnt believe in what Jacob is trying to do.
Esau says "they come, they fight, they destroy, and they corrupt, it always ends the same"
Jacob: "It only ends once, everything before that, is just progress"
So just what are the two battling over? and why is Jacob trying to prove Esau wrong? over what?
Thanks, Matt, for posting the conversation seen at the beginning of the episode. I was trying to recall everything here at work and that was helpful.
ReplyDeleteFirst, I don't think Rose and Bernard were in Jacob's cabin. Had it been built yet since we have seen Horace constructing it? I assumed that it was just a cabin they built themselves. I think their part in this finale was just to shut everyone up about Rose and Bernard and where they disappeared to.
Oh, and I wish I would have concentrated more on the fact that in this season I noticed that Locke and the smoke monster never appeared in the same scene. I think I spoke with you, Dan, about this briefly which led to a discussion of Clark Kent and Superman and finally ending on Smallville (Stream of Conscious). I am not sure if you recall this or not, but I cannot take any credit whatsoever because I never thought more about it. Damn the short attention span! I noticed it when Ben summoned the smoke monster to repent and then Locke comes from the jungle instead. I thought how odd, but my theorizing is not up to par comparitively.
I love the reference to Esau and Jacob. I have no idea what Jacob would be trying to prove just yet, but I love where it is leading. I think next season will no longer have the time travel as a major plot and it will be closer to the first season.
I also think that there is a Jacob and Esau connection. If so that explains the opening scene with the fish. Esau sold his birthright to Jacob for a bowl of stew. It could have been a nod to that. Also the name Jacob mean "holder of the heel." Anybody find it interesting that he lives in the foot at that statue? I think that if "Esau" could inhabit Locke's body then he could also inhabit Christian's body and Echo's brother, etc. If he was orchestrating this grand plan to kill Jacob, then he could have caused the plane crash and the plane crash with Echo's brother and many other events. Its clear that these beings can draw people to the island. "Esau" then uses the bodies of the dead to speak to the living. Such as appearing to Ben as ALex and instructing him to follow Locke.
ReplyDeleteJacob is trying to prove the goodness of humanity through the free will of humans to commit good or evil acts! While I agree with the Jacob/Esau comparison, I see their relationship as more of God and the Devil in the story of Job. The Devil and God make a bet where the Devil says he will make Job renounce God by tormenting him (This is sort of Ben's role).
ReplyDeleteIf you rewatch the episode, you'll notice that Jacob touched all of the 815ers in some way when he visited them in the past. This has something to do with his plan to use them to fight Esau. A blessing of some sort perhaps.
The book Jacob was reading when Locke fell is Flannery O'Connor's collection of short stories Everything That Rises Must Converge. The title story is about a bus trip where a racist white woman wears a fancy hat and then notices a black woman with the same hat. This enrages her, she acts very condescending to the black woman and her son, but then dies when she gets off the bus.
I'll give you credit for that theory about Locke and Smokie, Haley. I usually try to change the subject when you have a good theory, so I can confuse you and so you can't post it. Just kidding. I'll be your witness. But there's something more to Rose and Bernard and that cabin. Wait and see.
Just for the record Joy had it figured out that Locke was not Locke before they actually explained it.
ReplyDeleteSo now we have the man in black--another Dark Tower reference. In the Dark Tower series you are led to believe the man in black is the devil, which you may assume here as well. Only catch is, he's not. He's a wizard who uses his power for selfish gain--I won't say evil, although you may conclude that if you wish. Like it has been said many times on the show "everyone answers to someone," so who does this man in black answer to? Widmore--perhaps, although I tend to think not and it seems increasingly likely this man in black has pulled the wool over Ben, Widmore, Richard, etc and has successfully gained control of the island, which brings around to Matt's theory that at some point Ben and Widmore will be fighting side by side to regain the island, despite their varying reasons for doing so.
Next topic: the island is exploded. Does that now discount everything that happens after that point? I say not and even if we start next year with everyone on 815, these experiences still happened and they will have memories of them. I haven't thought this through, so I may be off here, but that's what I think.
I have more on time vs space, but it gets a little tricky and I need to think about how applicable it is before I get into it here.
Yeah, Ricky, I think you're right about them being on 815 again but with the experiences they've already had. Matt said Season 6 is supposed to be more like Season 1, and maybe it will BE Season 1. That is, those who retain knowledge of everything that happened in Seasons 1-5 will have to make better choices to make things turn out right. Morgan once told me this is Roland's role in the Dark Tower. He has partial memory of doing things slightly wrong the first time around and has to make amends.
ReplyDeleteI think Desmond will remain the Constant. His actions always will be to press the button in every timeline while the rest have to make different decisions. This may be why he saw the future in Season 3. Those were things that happened in other timelines (1 of 3, I think). Those different Charlie deaths were not because Desmond changed things but because other decisions were made that led to them. I don't know how much sense that makes but it explains Desmond's uniqueness. Maybe you CAN change the future, but Desmond can't. Other people (like Faraday) can manipulate Desmond's place as the constant, but Desmond's decisions will always be the same. (?)
Season 6:
ReplyDeleteEsau=Locke VS Jacob=Jack
Illana says Jacob hasnt been in the cabin for a long time.
ReplyDeleteWhy was he ever there in the first place if he lives under the statue?
She also says that someone else has been using it..."Esau/Smokie"
So everything weve seen take place in the cabin has been Esau, not Jacob.
So "Help Me" was Esau's voice, not Jacob being held prisoner.
Christian was speaking on Esau's behalf not Jacobs, so that makes Claire evil or under Esau's control.
And the island should have never been moved in the first place, cause those were Esau's orders.
So now that Jacob has been killed, can he manifest as another being like Esau? seems reasonable that they would posses similar powers.
If this is the case it wouldnt be so far fetched to think Jack will return with the spirit of Jacob residing within him.
Good call Joy on Jacob and the Heal reference in relation to the Statue.
Thats another reason I really think thats who these people are, Jacob and Esau. Though I do agree with you Dan that they are representative of something greater... God and Satan.
They seem to be involved in a game where they have control of the players involved.
But someone else is controlling the game.
The Light and the Dark
Good and Evil
God and the Devil
Why else would there be a loophole? There has to be an opportunity for the powers to shift, in order to maintain the balance of Yin and Yang
I bet theyve been playing this game for eternity living in multitudes of physical forms, passing from one to another while holding to their true identities, but acquiring and adding identities of who they reincarnate as.
It only ends once, everything until then is just Progress.
So what/who is the loophole?
Is it Locke? Is it Ben?
Is it all of the 815ers that have been blessed by Jacob? cause it seems Jacob found his own loophole, right as hes dying he says
"Theyre coming"
Is this Jack and the 815ers coming back to join Illana and Alpert to battle Locke?
The canoe scene back during the flashes makes a little more sense now.
ReplyDeleteLocke was in the canoe when they were trying to get to the Orchid.
So the people who strated shooting at them in the following canoe must know Locke was with them. Since they now know that if Locke leaves the island and dies, hes gonna come back as EvilLockeEsau, so they are trying to stop them from going to the Orchid.
Something else makes more sense now too.
ReplyDeleteThe Others funeral for that chick that Sun shot way back at the beginning of Season3.
They burn her body and float her out to sea.
Why? So Esau/Smokie/Darkie, whoever that guy is, wont take over her body.
That seemed like their traditional funeral for all of their people. They dont want the bodies to stay on the island because they know the consequences.
something I noticed in the credits at the beginning of the finale.
It says "The IncidentPart 1 written by: Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse"
"The IncidentPart 2 written by: Carlton Cuse and Damon Lindelof"
This seems like something they would throw in there as a little hint. Why not just say they whole episode was written by the both of them.
Instead they flip flop the names.
I wanted to see if anyone else had another opinion about the scene with Bernard and Juliet because Dan and I kind of took it two different ways at first. When Bernard asks Juliet if she would like to stay for tea, that awkward moment, I thought it meant that she had been visiting them throughout the three years since the island moved. That is how they knew so much about the time change and Dharmaville. So she knew they were out there and had also been bringing them cans of food.
ReplyDeleteHmmm, thats plausible. I wondered how they managed to scavenge cans of food without being caught.
ReplyDeleteI thought at first they were using that scene to dismiss Rose and Bernard, you know, theyre retired now.
But after a couple of viewings, I was thinking Bernard somehow knew Juliet would die if she went with Sawyer and Kate.
He was offering her an alternative without being manipulative, trying to help her exercise her free will.
Like Jacob did with Ben at the end.
Telling him he had a choice, but he wasnt being manipulative.
I interpreted that B&R scene like Matt, but I also like Haley's explanation. Only time will tell, I guess. There's just something strange about them living in that cabin, which seems to be a place for evil or something.
ReplyDeleteI also noticed that writer-credit flipping. That was strange. I mentioned it to Haley, and we thought it might be a joke because one always get their name first.
I've been saying that about burning the bodies since Nicki and Paulo's episode where they're buried alive. It made me wonder back to the first episodes when they burned all the bodies in the plane. Another way to prevent them from being used by Esau/Smokie (although they didn't know it).
Here's a paradox for everyone to think about: If the 815ers in 1977 return to just after the plane crash as many of us suspect, will Sun and Locke be there too? Or will they remain in 2007? Weird
ReplyDeleteAnd the canoe scene. Does Juliet shoot herself? That would be cool.
Did everyone see the season 6 teaser during the credits?
ReplyDeleteAfter the flash to white(another flip flop), it says 2010, the final season of Lost, Destiny found, then it shows a close up of what looks to be Jacks eye opening, just like the very first scene of season 1.
But if it starts like that, then like Dans says, thats a hell of a paradox since Sun is in 2007 and Locke is dead.
But maybe something does change, maybe Juliet's detonation actually changes something, and 815 still crashes on the island but for some other reason. Thats why Dharmaville looked all borded up when Sun and Lapidus were there, everyone abandoned the island after the explosion.
Its still everyones destiny to get to the island even if the Swan station isnt there to crash their flight. The plane would still have to have entered through a window, then it was ripped apart by the Swan. But if the Swan isnt there to rip the plane apart, then 815 would still fly through the island window and would likely have to crash land like 316.
There has to be a bigger reason Sun never flashed back to 77, if something changed this time around then maybe she never boarded 815 in Australia, and was never supposed to reach the island until 2007 on flight 316.
I've wondered about Sun myself. In a different timeline, what if she DID decide to leave Jin and flee the airport before getting on the plane? Once the place crashed she felt guilty for years, etc., etc. and returned via 316. This doesn't explain her motivation, but there is something extremely problematic about Locke and Sun being in 2007 if a time loop starts over. Plus, Locke is dead.
ReplyDeleteHere's another thought Desmond as the constant in multiple timelines. Thinking back once again to Season 3's "Further Instructions," Locke sees Desmond in his airport vision as a pilot accompanied by triplet stewardesses. Guide Boone tells him, "Don't worry about him. He's helping himself." So what if Desmond always plays the same basic role in every timeline: to push the button, to turn the key, to initiate the Oceanic Six's escape from the island. Besides a few deviations, Desmond always does those things...
Just a theory, but...
Oh yeah, that Season 6 teaser is another reason I think they start over from Day 1. They've essentially already shown us the opening scene for next year, although it seems to be a rehash of Season 1 for effect.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure the idea of destroying bodies so smoky can't use them works because don't we see Smoky as Yemi after Eko burns the plane?
ReplyDeleteI'm gonna have to watch this whole stinking season over again now to know Locke's not Locke. Crap.
I like the theory about Juliet helping Rose and Bernard.
I don't know about the writers credits. Could be they both wanted to share first billing on it. Could be an indicator that everything is changing now--just like the change from black to white at the end.
Good point about Yemi. But he was just burned along with the plane, not burned and set a drift at sea. I think the floating out to sea is crucial. The body would foat out away from the island and away from the monsters reach.
ReplyDeleteIt also seems that smokie cant cross water. Bens secret chamber in his house had a pool of water that he unplugged, seemed as if that was an important process to calling him.
So smokie Esau cant leave the island but Jacob can, or maybe its whoever is in control can leave the island. Thats bad news for the rest of the world now that EvilLockeEsau is in control.
Right before Eko was killed by Smokie, Eko told Locke that Yemi's body was gone. But he did burn his rotted corpse. When we saw Smokie in Yemi's form though, he had what looked like ash all over his priest's suit.
ReplyDeleteInteresting point about Smokie not crossing water. But wouldn't what's-her-names body just stay within the bubble of the Island like Desmond trying to sail away?
Just ran across this. In Season 4, while Ben is locked in the basement of his house, Locke gives him a book from his bookshelf. Ben says he's read it already, but Locke tells him to read it again in case he missed something. The book is Philip Dick's VALIS. Check out the synopsis on wiki.
ReplyDeleteVALIS is a 1981 science fiction novel by Philip K. Dick. The title is an acronym for Vast Active Living Intelligence System, Dick's gnostic vision of one aspect of God.
It's long but go to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VALIS
I meant to say this earlier, but did anyone else feel like they were watching the Zarlac pit when all of our Losties were fighting to avoid being sucked down the hatch?
ReplyDeleteSARLAC Pit... and yes I did.
ReplyDeleteEspecially when Juliette got wrapped up in those chains and got pulled in.
I had a flash back of Lando getting grabbed by those tentacles.
Ya know what could save Juliette?... is that she did not die from the fall. So if everyone else gets zapped to the future from the explosion, then she would too. Richard presumes they died from the explosion, but if they just time traveled then she would as well. But that could have been the end game for all of them, and they really did die, now it all starts over again from the crash.
Just where was Richard when he saw all of this?
He had to be close enough to see it, but not be affected by it. Surely we'll see his POV in Season 6.
Sarlac? Lucas sucks. Why would you call something Sarlac when you could call it Zarlac instead?
ReplyDeleteAs long as it ain't "Dooku" or "Jar Jar"or "Lil' Darth Ani"...
ReplyDeleteHey, how can you tell if you're a truly southern Star Wars fan?
If you pronounce Boba (Bow-bah) Fett, Bubba Fett. I know the truth, and I can't say it right.
very true Dan. Ive been called out on that before.
ReplyDeleteI say Bubba Fett, always have, even though I know its Boba.
After watching the finale once again, I have to say that it sounds like Jacob says,
"IF it only ends once, then everything until then is just progress"
That IF is very big in this statement. They may not know when it ends or how many times it ends. Or Im just hearing things and he says "It only ends once"
Its hard to tell cause the camera isnt on Jacob when he starts his dialogue, but it sounds like there could be an IF in there.
I just watched it on my Tivo with the closed captioning on. He says "It only ends once." There is no if. One thing I noted about the man in black though is that he responds to one question with "I am"--a very God statement, then another with "Am I?"--the reverse. Beginning and end, alpha and omega, light and dark. It may be nothing, but I noticed it. Also, I think these two beings in the form they are presented at the beginning of the episode are their natural form. I don't think they are inhabiting the bodies of other people otherwise why wouldn't the man in black kill Jacob right then?
ReplyDeleteThat "I am," "Am I" is interesting. Good catch on the reversal, Ricky. That's definitely God-like. When Moses talked to the burning bush, he asked, "Who are you?" and God responded something like "I am he who is I am" or something.
ReplyDeleteOn the natural bodies thing: Remember, "Esau" (or Johnny Cash if you prefer based on his clothing) didn't kill Jacob. Ben did. I don't think it matters what form they take. For whatever reason, the Island won't let Jacob or "Esau" kill the other. Sort of like others can't die until the Island is done with them, maybe? But Jacob and "Esau" have to rely on humans and their free will. They can manipulate, but they can't act. Even in Locke's form, "Esau" couldn't kill Jacob but manipulated Ben to do it. He did seal his doom by pushing him into the fire, which I'm curious about. Isn't that the same as killing even though Ben already had stabbed him?
Dan, you're gonna have to explain that to me again. I thought the actual Locke was dead in that crate, but "Esau" was using Locke's likeness to kill Jacob. You are saying it's actually Locke who killed him? That's not how I interpreted it, but I'd be interested in your thoughts.
ReplyDeleteNo, I didn't mean that Locke killed anybody. That end part was confusing.
ReplyDeleteEsau didn't kill Jacob. Apparently he can't kill him. So he got Ben to do it instead. He manipulated Ben (maybe for decades) into killing Jacob.
The part that confused me was how Esau-Locke (evil Locke, inside the statue with Ben) pushed Jacob into the fire. It didn't seem that Jacob was dead yet. If Esau (even in Locke's form) can't kill, then how could he push him into the fire? Because that seemed like it killed him before he could bleed out from the knife wound inflicted by Ben.
I don't think Esau is supposed to be able to kill Jacob, but that push into the fire has me confused. Maybe since he was dying anyway, it didn't matter anymore (?). I don't know. Maybe I'm reading too much into that.
I believe he was assuring there would be no physical remains of Jacob. He was dead or defintely dying from the wounds inflicted by Ben.
ReplyDeleteEvil Locke/Esau was simply assuring that there would be no resurection/reincarnation on Jacobs part.
Much like The Others burning their victims.
But then that brings us back to Yemi being burned yet somehow he appeared to Echo.
What if the ash surrounding the cabin came from Jacob's body during this incident? That's sort of a paradox but...
ReplyDeleteWell, if we're to assume that Esau is Smokie and that Smokie is the one reincarnating bodies, why would that matter? Surely Esau wouldn't reincarnate Jacob!
ReplyDeleteOh, a thought just occurred that goes with my theory that there are three supernatural beings. Jacob runs the show and has physical form, Esau/Smokie can only assume the forms of those who ARE dead (not necessarily their bodies). This would explain Locke and Yemi incarnations despite their body still being accounted for or being burned. The third entity (God?) can reincarnate (although Dead is Dead?) people like Christian (who still considers Jack his son), and maybe even Claire, to serve as high-caste "angels" (Seraphim?) while the Others are a lower caste of "angels" (Cherabim?).
I don't know. Sorry about the rambling.
Alright. One more rambling question: Why did Richard bring Ben to the Temple (presumably Smokie's home) to save him? What's the deal with that? Richard obviously knows that Jacob lives in a shoe and not in the Temple. That's something for us to think about. Maybe this is how Ben became the Island Anti-Christ (IAC, y'all).
ReplyDeleteI think when it comes down to it, there are only two sides to all this.
ReplyDeleteLight and Dark.
Weve been told this time and time again, I dont see the story straying from that.
There are definitely complicated mysterious factions that are still in question. But Im sure when all is said and done, everyone will easily be on one side or the other.
Light or Dark
Okay, this is far-fetched but would be such a plot twister for next season...what if Locke has only been Locke in the flashbacks? What if the real reason that Locke was able to walk again on the island was because he was really Jacob? I suppose for this to work Jacob would have to inhabit people, rather than mimic their image like Essau, though. It could tie into the notion that Essau can only mimc the dead. This would also mean that the island does not have healing powers and that Ben has been working for Essau longer than we thought since he killed John (forcing Jacob out)...just a random, improbable thought.
ReplyDeleteMy only answer to that would be that it would be wrong for the writers to get us to care about a character who isn't even real in the first place. But it could be possible and be related to Esau's comment that he had gone through a lot to have Jacob killed. But what about Locke encountering Smokie (if Esau is Smokie and Matt's comment about two sides supports this) if he is supposed to be Smokie.
ReplyDeletePlus, we all could tell that resurrected Locke was completely different from the Locke we've seen from Season 1 onward.
I just watched 316 again. Could it be that some went to 1977 and others went to the presnt because some did a better job of replicating the circumstances of the original flight? Jack is seemingly a completely different person at this time, so he got zapped back to 1977. Kate was originally running away and was forced on the flight against her will, but now is going to find someone and went voluntarily, so she got zapped back to 1977 as well. Sun originally went on the flight after a conscious decision to stay with Jin and now is going after a conscious decision to be with Jin again, so she got to go to the present? Is this plausible? I don't recall why Sayid was on the flight originally, but he was obviously on it of his own free will, but not the case now, so he goes back to 77, too. That only leaves Hurley and I'm not sure I'm clear on why he got on 316 other than his encounter with Jacob. Everyone else who wasn't on 815 goes to the present--Lapidus, Ben, Caeser, that chick who caught Sayid.
ReplyDeleteI like that idea but I've been thinking Jacob orchestrated the different appearances in time on the Island as if he needed certain people in certain places to fulfill distinct roles. He gave Hurley that guitar (if it is a guitar) maybe to help Hurley recreate the original circumstances of the flight.
ReplyDelete